Daughter-Father Dance Podcast
Episode 3: Lines In the Sand
TRANSCRIPT

Jenée Arthur 0:38

Welcome back, everybody. Thanks for making it through last week's cringeworthy episode. Dad and I definitely chose one of the hardest conversations right out of the gate, we know. And I've gotten a lot of feedback from people about it being a challenging one for listeners. But what a great opportunity to hit the nail on the head with our objective of proving that differences don't have to result in division.

I want to mention that I'm writing a book about the most pivotal conversation between me and my dad that took place when I was seven years old. I use the results of that conversation, my takeaway, if you will, to literally help me gauge nearly every decision in my life.

As I've already declared, Dad is very much one of the reasons I stay committed to myself in life—not to doctrine, another person's agenda, or rules made for reasons seemingly unrelated to me. I remained committed to what is true for my soul, due to the fact that I had a father (and a mother, mind you) who fortified that in me and in my siblings throughout our entire young lives.

As a little girl, when I'd asked my dad any question, regardless of the subject matter, he wouldn't launch into his opinion, or even the facts about the thing I was inquiring about. He always asked what I thought about what I was asking him first.

Now, this wasn't dismissive. It was deliberate.

What was beautiful about it was how it taught me to think for myself. It also created a strong bond between me and my dad, because he was genuinely interested in hearing how I saw the world.

My dad knew the question I was asking came from somewhere further back than the question itself. And he gave me the space to allow that place to come forward.

Now, he would also correct me if in my commentary, I got the facts wrong, or he questions certain things I said, but he never inserted his opinion. His thoughts are surmise, anything beyond my question, without first allowing me an opportunity to speak what was on my mind. That's a pretty marvelous thing in so many ways. And it's beautifully demonstrated in this week's conversation.

Now before we begin, I'd like to invite you to email us from our website, daughterfatherdance.com with any questions you might have, or to toss out a topic you'd like for Dad and I to discuss in the future. And by the way, please SUBSCRIBE, RATE and REVIEW us on Apple Podcasts. It helps us out a lot.

On to this week's episode—Lines In the Sand.

Jenée Arthur 5:09
Let's talk about belief— to kind of examine whether having a belief (a strong belief) is expansive to our lives or if it's limiting to our lives. And what I mean by that is— is a belief life giving or is it limiting? And I compare it to love and fear. Love is very life giving. Love is very expansive, which is a word I use when I feel that there are limitless possibilities. I feel that relative to love. Fear, however, is constricting and limiting and all those things. So what I'm surmising, or what I want to bring kind of to the surface, is a discussion about whether belief is expansive— life giving, or whether it is limiting.

Gene Arthur 5:25
I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that. Because, to me, belief is what you believe, period. Right?

Jenée Arthur 5:49
Okay. Well, let's take that then. So if I believe people that do drugs are evil, right, like that's a belief, right? Like, let's just say that. I don't believe that ,just for the record. But let's just say that's an example. Suddenly, my perspective on anyone that does drugs is that evil is related to that human being, because I have this belief because one, whether I was taught it, or I just fear them, whatever. I have this belief. So to me that's a limiting scenario, right? Because, first of all, that belief is ridiculous. And so, as an example of, I think, I believe …Okay, let's just call a spade a spade. I believe that if you have a staunch belief and that it's irrefutable, and that nothing else can come through, that there is a limitation to the belief, because you've closed your mind off to any other scenario. My example of somebody that takes drugs is evil. That's not true.

Gene Arthur 5:35
Are you saying that when you believe strongly enough about something, you're thinking, you can be completely satisfied with that? Even if there's something opposite of that?

Jenée Arthur 5:49
Yeah, I'm trying to say the minute you lay a hard line in the sand, you've cut your mind off to any other possibility that anything else exists. And I use that example because it's so ridiculously making my point. Not everyone who uses drugs is evil. I don't even think anybody who uses drugs is evil.

Gene Arthur 6:09
See, belief— you can also call. That's what your faith is. You have to have faith to have a belief.

Jenée Arthur 6:18
But I'm not... I don't want to go there. It's not all about faith. Right now I'm talking about a belief in something that your…

Gene Arthur 6:26
I don't understand. What do you believe?

Jenée Arthur 6:30
That could be anything? What are you talking about? What do I believe about what?

Gene Arthur 6:34
Well, I think that's how I am thinking about this subject we're talking about.

Jenée Arthur 6:39
Cuz you're seeing it in a religious context. I'm saying it's also outside of religious belief isn't just [about faith].

Gene Arthur 6:46
I can talk about... I can talk about working on cars, or boats or cutting grass.

Jenée Arthur 6:52
What does cutting grass have to do with anything? We're talking about belief!

Gene Arthur 6:56
Well, but where do you go with it? After you say, I have belief. What is belief?

Jenée Arthur 7:08
Okay. So what I'm saying is, is a belief, does it limit you? Or does it expand your life experience? That's the point I'm trying to make. And I think there's a reason it's, it's hard, because it, it kind of putting something on the nose? With, what... What are you saying under your breath?

Gene Arthur 7:28
I'm trying to understand what you're saying. If belief limits you, or expand you? I don't understand. I guess the concept of your example of is it limiting? Or does it expand you? I think it might be both.

Jenée Arthur 7:49
Okay, fair enough. That's actually a good point of topic. And I'm coming at it from the understanding or I think that sometimes having a hard line belief can limit people. The minute you stand strong in that belief that something is X, Y, or Z. And you have an irrefutable mindset about that, that's not necessarily true. It's just what you believe.

Gene Arthur 8:16
Okay, this is what's comes to my mind. When Joe Fitzgerald, in the hallway of that apartment when I got out of the orphanage, he was telling me about Henry.

Jenée Arthur 8:28
Right .

Gene Arthur 8:28
My friend Henry. “Are you inviting him into your house to use your bathroom?” “Are you giving him water to drink from your glasses?”

Well, when he was telling me all that stuff, he told me, I was going to be known a n****r-over, and that I shouldn't do that. Well, I believed that when he was telling me was right, but I have outgrown that, from that experience, because I realized later on in life, Joe was prejudice, and a bigot and had a limited understanding of people and of friendship and things like that. Now, if that's a good or bad example of belief. I believed that at one time, but then it didn't limit me to that belief, because I changed my belief by what my own life revealed to me right now

Jenée Arthur 9:30
That's a great example Dad, because...I think it's proving the point of if you had hung on to that belief, you were very limited. You were basically falling into the same mold or category as Joe because you he was basically laying a belief on you that you if you hadn't revisited it or have your own experiences in life that has changed that belief. That was your belief at one point. And it was an errant belief, it wasn't a good belief to hang on to yet. It

Because of, you know, an adult basically put it upon you, you had that belief. So it's a little bit proving the point of if you had stayed with that it would have limited you. And so that's kind of what I wanted to frame out was our beliefs limiting, basically. Because had you kept that belief that that would have limited you in your life, you would never have wanted to get to know, black people you would have had you would have been prejudice and a bigot. And maybe what you're saying is beliefs are malleable. Obviously, they are. You changed yours.

Gene Arthur 10:50
I think beliefs are part of our formation of our conscience.

Jenée Arthur 11:01
[VOICEOVER] Oh, dear God, we are not going down the examining of the conscience this episode. No way.

Gene Arthur 11:05
We weren't intended to be hateful, or spiteful, or bigots.

But we learn it. And then either we believe it, or we reject it, and circumstances in life, allow you to reach that point in your life where I don't accept that. I don't believe that. Right.

Gene Arthur 11:11
[LAUGHTER] I don't know if I'm giving anything?

Jenée Arthur 11:23
No, I think it's I think it's actually good. Because I think it's that example of Henry and Joe is is a good one. I mean, it's a poignant one, because it was an early recollection that you have, and I know that it made you sad that you gave up that friendship because of a belief you had right. For years, dad couldn't tell the story of Henry without getting tears in his eyes. For us kids, it was a lesson in not judging others. And it helped us to understand racism and bigotry.

To the point of our beliefs limiting are expansive, they can be limiting. And they can be expansive because that one, I believed I was doing something wrong, right? Because somebody told you that. Yeah, so not knowing anything as a kid. I believed I was doing something wrong. So that's why I ended my friendship with Henry. Right? But later, I realized that that was wrong. I was told something that was false. Yep. Not everything you hear is actually right. You have to discern. And then as a man of faith, I would take it to prayer, whatever, you know, you want to describe what you do after you hear something and then kind of wrestle with it. Yeah.

Gene Arthur 12:41
Tell me something that is your example.

Jenée Arthur 12:45
[VOICEOVER] That comment took me back in time to when I was a little girl, and the nostalgic nod to moments that filled my childhood with my dad.

Jenée Arthur 12:49
I think the example that we're on right now, like, I believe that there are very few things that I would make a hard line, this is irrefutable, and nobody can change my mind about it. But there is one thing and that thing is that I truly believe that there is a God.

[VOICEOVER] So I would like to note that my belief in God has expanded beyond what God was to me as a little girl in an amazingly rich way. That is, to me, God isn't necessarily an entity with a personhood, but is indeed the source of all things. I think even the fact that God has spoken about primarily as a father has its limitations. I don't necessarily by that the Creator of all things, the entire universe would choose a gender. And if it did, okay, that's for another episode entirely. For now, the only hardline belief I have is that there is a God.

Gene Arthur 13:55
You're very positive of what you believe. And you're not going to be persuaded that you need to change your mind. Right?

Jenée Arthur 14:03
I mean, I would challenge someone to do that. Thus far, no one's given me evidence to make me change my mind. My point, though, it's interesting, based on the question that this episode poses, is our beliefs limiting or expanding? Because here's the thing, dad, if you asked an atheist, they'd have a strong hardline about atheism, that there is absolutely no other force other than humanity, nature and forces of earthly or planetary forces there are but there is no God, they're going to be pretty committed to that belief.

Gene Arthur 14:40
So you're saying that an atheist draws a line in the sand and you also draw a line in the sand.

So you both have a line in the sand that you're not going to cross over.

Jenée Arthur 14:46
Exactly.

Okay. Then the next thing I would think— tell me why you will not cross over that line. Dialogue with them to see where their strengths or their weaknesses are in why they believe that.

Jenée Arthur 15:10
Why are we discerning strength and weakness? Like what—are we debating? Is that what you're talking about?

Gene Arthur 15:16
Well, I was just thinking, if I was to encounter an atheist who was really hard lying about being an atheist, my tendency would be to say, hey, let's sit down and talk about it. And maybe in that process of sitting down and talking about it, we could see if there's any kind of wiggle room between both thoughts.

Jenée Arthur 15:40
Nice.

Gene Arthur 15:40
And if it happens, fine. If it doesn't happen, that's fine. But at least, you got two people with opposite point of views, dialoguing about why they believe that that would be my tendency, because I tried to do that with non Christians and non Catholic dialogue. Uh, you've heard many stories about how I would approach that.

Jenée Arthur 16:08
[VOICEOVER] Yeah, there are a slew of accounts of my father sitting down to dialogue with others about their differences. One year, he invited an entire team of Jehovah's Witnesses to our lake house every Saturday to allow them to talk about their religion with him. The only caveat was that he in turn, got to talk about his. And though it's not fully substantiated, it is believed that one of the elders stopped showing up because they likely converted to Catholicism.

Jenée Arthur 16:08
There are many things I believe that drawing a line in the sand does limit you in general, I believe beliefs. If you're like, I believe this and you're not changing my mind. You're limited. You're not listening to anybody else's feedback. You're not listening to existences feedback, you're cutting yourself off, because this is what you believe. And so I think in general, like the basic definition of belief is incredibly limiting. I'm somebody that thinks that open mindedness is very much more expanding. And that's why I'm posing the question.

Gene Arthur 17:15
Okay, well, what comes to my mind just now was the truth. What is the truth? The truth to me? might very well be something different to someone else. Limiting. Yeah, I think it limits you to the truth. It all comes back to when you dialogue with people with different opinions get to the truth. And the truth sometimes, is revealed in dialogue and sometimes rejected and sometimes accepted. The truth is a double-edged sword.

Jenée Arthur 17:52
Okay, well, hold on that thought, because I want to hear what you mean by that. But just back to your example of the truth.
Why do you keep doing that with your glasses?

Gene Arthur 18:02
Well, if I wear my glasses on my ears…

Jenée Arthur 18:04
Yeah [snickers]

Gene Arthur 18:05
I've got a hairline tunnel from here back over my ear. And I'm trying to avoid having the title of my hair being indented by the glasses. Because when I wear glasses for a long time, your mother does this.

Jenée Arthur 18:23
Dad! You sound like Cousin Eddie!

Jenée Arthur 18:30

[CLIP OF COUSIN EDDIE FROM CHRISTMAS VACATION] “Well, if this gets dented, my hair just ain’t gonna look right?”

Gene Arthur 18:36
I got I got hair tunnels from wearing glasses. Oh my god, I don't wear glasses all the time. Just when I'm looking at you on this screen or reading something?

Jenée Arthur 18:47
Oh my god. Okay. Yeah, I don't even know where to go with that. Okay. So back to. Two things, I want to go back to what you said truth is a double edged sword. But before that, I want to say that I know very many people, my Jewish friends included who would say that your belief that Jesus is the way the truth and the life is not truth is not true for them. And so, belief is incredibly personal. You can't assert that for everyone in the world. That's the truth because it's not for them. Belief is personal. And I believe truth is personal. Interestingly, I know we go head to head on this now that I'm an adult, but as a child at seven years old, you are a huge fan of me figuring out my own truth. Not saying that we didn't share truths, but you were incredibly reminding of to seek that out for myself. Don't just take everything you say. Many men that as fathers, they put their own beliefs onto their children. You didn't do that. So you inspired me to always seek what is true for me. Now I know you also believe there's a universal truth.

But I think this is where our belief is personal to us because as soon as we project that belief onto someone else, it's not fair. It's not true. It is incredibly limiting.

Even to your example of being a young boy, that that was a destructive belief that you later turned into a healthy belief that Joe was wrong to say, he was wrong. Yeah. Okay. Um, so in terms of belief, Dad, do you want to say any more about this subject?

Gene Arthur 20:32
[SINGING] I believe that every raining that falls...,

You brought the subject up? And then if you're asking you're not so smart dad, to give you a commentary on a subject that you bring up unlimited as to where what resources I've got to draw from To give you an example, aren't it just even speak about it somebody smarter than me an intellectual could probably give you a much better idea about belief.

Jenée Arthur 21:04
Yeah, I don't want to talk to an intellectual. I want to talk to you. And I think you gave some great examples about the my point. So let's—unless you have something else to say about it, let's just call it at that on this particular subject. Have you expressed to your satisfaction? what you believe? belief is? Yeah, I mean, I haven't given it a Janae. Arthur definition. But I do believe except for a few things, like I've said, that beliefs are incredibly limiting. I think that beliefs are personal. The minute you make a belief, universal, you've put a limit on it, just as Joe did with you. So I don't know how I would say that in a definition form. But I think there are very few beliefs that are expanding us, I think more most beliefs limit us. You know, it's like beliefs can be very polarizing. I think we can see just even in the world, how well that goes over. It's destructive, right? We can't accept somebody else's belief. Ours is the only way. And I think, you know, interestingly, Dad, that that's what this podcast is about, right? Recognizing that we may see things from different perspectives, but not necessarily having to be divided about that. I bet we could talk for hours about belief and go down a lot of rabbit holes. And we probably still come out the other side going well, tons more to talk about.

Gene Arthur 22:32
Well, as long as you're satisfied with the way this is going, I'm delighted.

Jenée Arthur 22:40
I think this is as good a place as any to end this episode.

[VOICEOVER] In closing, despite how confusing this conversation began, I think it unfolded in a way that sheds light on a subject that we take for granted. Because as my dad says, belief is what you believe. Yet I think if we look hard enough at the lines we draw, we can likely see how they are limiting us and those around us. Just something to think about.

Again, thank you so much for being here.

Be good to one another. And remember, there's always a different place from which you can view what you are currently seeing. Oh, and think about sitting down and talking with someone who might have glaringly opposing views as you find that wiggle room dad mentioned earlier. You never know what might come of it.

Thanks again.

See you next time.

Division is Optional