Daughter-Father Dance Podcast
Episode 2: The Elephant In the Room
TRANSCRIPT

0:00  Show Trailer

Jenée Arthur  0:35  
Hey, welcome to our second episode. I am so happy you're here. And by the way, thank you so much for all the beautiful shoutouts you've given us about the first episode. It really means a lot to me and my dad. What would also mean a lot to us is if this episode doesn't send you screaming into the abyss, we would so appreciate if you would subscribe rate and review it. It's easy to do and we even have instructions on our website daughterfatherdance.com. It walks you through it step-by-step. 

Now this episode is rife with tense moments and conversations that will please some listeners and nauseate others. It could possibly even incite some anger. I do use a few expletives. Oh, and we discuss body parts with the correct anatomical terminology. I mention this because I guess some people hate that? Anyway, on to what we promised last week, an episode about the elephant in the room.

Gene Arthur  1:35  
We are all unique. And in the uniqueness of individual personalities in the family. I believe it's designed that way, but divine design.

Jenée Arthur  1:48  
As you'll soon discover, my dad sees his entire existence through the lens of the Divine. It's what makes him who he is. And though it's frustrating to me sometimes that religion or divinity has to be brought into every conversation, it's also actually one of the biggest blessings in my life.

Gene Arthur  2:08  
When you revealed to your mother and I that you were gay, that was a shock that was never thought about or on the radar as you were growing up. So the day that you said that was” okay, what's this mean?” “How do I respond to that?” “What about your mother?” “What about your siblings?”

We did let you speak freely. And we asked you questions. And we allowed you to tell us your feelings and how this came about. Because that's what a father should do—let their children speak. So in that process, and trying to understand because we are all unique and different, what happened to me as a father, when my daughter said that she knows for certain that she's gay, that put me in a situation where I had to learn and research to come to a conclusion as to why I had never thought about anything unloving, because you are who you are. And I love you.

Jenée Arthur  3:23  
This is important to remember because a little later, my dad's love for me, and the fact that I am who I am, will seem to get a bit upended by his staunch beliefs. But for the record, my dad's love has always superseded his belief system. 

[Dad,] I've been grateful to you over the years because of the design of our relationship. And because we don't allow things that we differ on to stand in the way do we fight about things or argue about things? Yes, we have historically done that. But you were always very accepting and sensitive and tender about my relationship. But Dad, I know that it also has caused you some anxiety or some because I know because of your faith, because the way that church sees homosexuality, that's been a struggle for you. So will you talk a little bit about that? Because they are not exclusive of each other your faith and who you are, are one.

Gene Arthur  4:21  
Yeah, that tight rope's pretty high, and there's no net. Well, what did I discover in my own trying to understand this was that this goes against what I was raised to believe and what I did this day still believe is a unnatural expression of love. I've always tried to to look at it as well. A person may be gay, that is not in itself, evil or bad. I do To this day believe that you should love the center, but hate the sin. Because I was raised that way. 

Jenée Arthur  5:09  
[VOICEOVER] I know, I too struggle with the sinner thing, but just hang in there. And remember, this is his perspective.

Gene Arthur  5:17  
The act of sexual gratification is greatly distorted today. The natural sex act in its origin of God creating man and woman was designed to be complimentary of each other. Or in other words, the parts fit.

Jenée Arthur  5:43  
[VOICEOVER] Yeah, sex education, no matter what age, is never fun with your father. 

[LAUGHTER]  This reminds me of that time you and I were fighting about the fact that a penis and a vagina fit and two vaginas don't fit. And you remember, Jason came running up the stairs, he said, “If..” and we were fighting, like you were seething and kind of spitting and I was yelling back at you. And he comes running upstairs. And he says “If I have to listen to my father and my sister talking about penises and vaginas, for one more minute...” 

[VOICEOVER] Well, you can always count on me to throw humor into the mix when things get super uncomfortable. But seriously, for all of us who find fulfillment in the full expression of who we are gay, lesbian, bisexual or otherwise, this is a rough conversation. It's also hard to hear your own dad basically tell you that your love, or your expression of that love, is less than ideal, immoral, something you should deny yourself. It doesn't compute. Because it means none of these things to me.

Gene Arthur  6:55  
It's the divine design of procreation. And homosexuality is a contradiction to that. We all are a fallen humanity, because of our first parents, we are prone to do things that we're really not supposed to do.

Jenée Arthur  7:21  
I understand the lineage of information and the church and how all the information is handed down. But I also was taught by you that my relationship with God is personal, and that my conscience is also a gauge, not just what I'm told, and what the laws are the, you know, be it canonical law, or whatever it is, but that my own conscience comes into play. And so for me, and I don't say this in defense, but I say this in transparency, I’ve had to examine my life.

You know, I'd love to talk about a recent situation you and I got into your whole idea was that I just made this choice to be this thing. And I made it really clear. I don't think anyone chooses to be gay. Why, first of all, would we because it's not a comfortable being a minority in a majority of what you're talking about … that our love is unnatural. So what I wanted to say about conscience is I've had to look at my life. And then I didn't really struggle, because for me, it felt like the moment I understood what was going on, and why. When boys kissed me in high school, it had no effect. There was no attraction whatsoever. There wasn't repulsion, but it was like I'm not feeling all the same things my girlfriends are feeling they're talking about when he kisses me, I feel this... I'm like, "What?" And then the moment Kate kissed me, I was like, "Oh, shit, this is what they were talking about.” And so I started to recognize that my makeup was different. I know, as I know about other things, that that was true for me. And so I had to go through a looking at my conscience, like, how am I going to do this, this isn't going to align with anything I even have reference for. I don't even know what to do. So I just wanted to make that comment because it's not always about what we're told. It's about what our personal experience dictates in our relationship to God.

Gene Arthur  9:24  
Now, so far as your conscience, I do believe your conscience can be formed by someone other than yourself. And I say that because we don't come completely assembled. our conscience is one of those things that needs to be assembled and put together as we live. But because we are not totally assembled, our conscience is something that has to be formed. And I believe that a well informed conscience gives you the ability to discern right from wrong, good and bad. So I guess I'm saying that the conscience, if it's not formed properly, or in line with some authority, and that authority being other than yourself.

Jenée Arthur  10:30  
But if you look at it from the that, that perspective, my conscience was formed by my family, my conscience was formed by the church, my conscience has been formed by my relationship with God, even though it had iterations of leaving the church and coming back or studying Buddhism or whatever it was... My conscience has been formed very similarly to yours, other than different key players.

Gene Arthur  10:54  
In my opinion, it all has to come back to the original authority, the beginning, and that is, in my opinion, God, and Jesus Christ. The examples that he gave us are what I think is what's best to follow.

Jenée Arthur  11:13  
In light of what we're talking about— homosexuality, Jesus never said anything about it, nor did he condemn it, in his, in what's documented anyway, because I don't think everything he said is documented or that we have access to. So how do you say that, like, let's say, me forming my, or I'm going to examine my conscience in examining my conscience. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about homosexuality. And so if you're informing your conscience based on Jesus, I feel very much that I have over my life. But he never said to me, I was unnatural.

[VOICEOVER] I think this is a good place to better establish one of the characters in this conversation. Me.

Not only am I, the elephant in the room due to my sexuality, which I'm sure you've gleaned by now. I'm also someone who recognizes Jesus in a slightly different way than my dad. Dad's reference for Jesus that he conveys in this conversation comes from an institutional understanding of him, while he has his own personal relationship with Christ, of course. But I see Jesus as the greatest example of limitless possibility of expanding beyond the preconceived stories, or notions or laws of an institution.

Gene Arthur  12:35  
Okay, you brought up a good subject there. Jesus never talked about homosexuality. There's a lot of things Jesus didn't talk about. That's why he established his church. But see, Jesus said, things that we have to consider as being authentic and true. So God established an authority on earth to continue his salvific plan for mankind. Because we're a damaged humanity. We're, we're hurt from our original parents.

Jenée Arthur  13:14  
I think that's where we have a difference. I don't see I see as made in God's image. So I don't think we're damaged. I don't understand how the Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden comes into play. But that's where we are starting point is very different. The fact that we're all damaged, is I think we're all perfect. And because we were made in the image of God, and we fuck up, sometimes we make mistakes. So when you're saying that's the starting point in which we have to take who we are from, I strongly disagree.

Gene Arthur  13:49  
Okay. You said we're not damaged goods. Okay? I said it that way, as an analogy of before and after. When you were born, you were a creation of God, you were still a creation of God, until you were baptized. At baptism, you became a child of God. So the damage was prior to your baptism. But what damage Adam and Eve disobeyed.
[Ominous music]

Jenée Arthur  14:26  
[VOICEOVER] No disrespect to my dad or anyone who takes this story as a fact. But to bank our entire existence on the story of the betrayal in the Garden of Eden as the means by which we measure how damaged we are, seems ludicrous to me. This is way bigger than this soundbyte or this entire episode can allow. But I feel compelled to convey that I personally don't think if we are made in the image of the source of all things— or whatever you want to call it— to me, it's God, then we don't need saving. I'm not talking about shortcomings as humans, I'm talking about our true essence. In our innate state of who we are, I think we are perfect. And I think Jesus was telling us to be like him, because he embraced and recognize that perfection, and that conviction to source. There is no division between Jesus and God. Because there's no division between God and the vast universe and everything that makes up that universe, including us. Life is expansive, and big. And I believe that it unfolds based on the direction in which you're focusing. So why not focus on the good on the magnificence of people. I know why my dad frames things the way he does. Jesus is everything to him. And because He cares about his family and the people he loves, I mean, this is a man who takes an hour and a half to get out of bed because of all the people he prays for every day. And by the way, he's been praying a prayer for six years, every day, that takes him 20 minutes, that one prayer, which he'll be praying for 12 years. He's dedicated, he believes in the constructs from which he views life, and I love that about him.

Gene Arthur  16:38  
But keep in mind, Née, with all my love for you, there's nothing wrong with a person who is homosexual. The only thing is wrong about that is what happens as attraction to one another happens, it's the in pure act of sexual sin. Not the individual, not the homosexual person, they they're attracted that way. But that's taboo, to do anything sexually with that attraction, as it would be taboo for me to do something sexual with another woman. That would be adultery. It's an act of purity against the body.

Jenée Arthur  17:25  
Okay, I'm going to stop you there. When you use the word purist. That, to me, sums up how you see the world, it's very black and white. It's very much how the magisterium of the church was designed. And so I recognize and I think this is really great for listeners, because, like, so much of what you say, when I was, you know, years ago, I rolled my eyes because I'm like, “I don't believe that at all.” And so much of you say, I still don't agree with, but I don't roll my eyes anymore. Because I recognize from where you're standing and seeing it. I don't believe that division is a reality. I think that it's literally just a different difference of perspective, the place from which you stand and from which you perceive the world is very indoctrinatedly black and white. I don't stand in that same position. I think what's great about this conversation is we can accept each other's perspectives, even if we disagree, because that is, I believe, what has kept us intact as a father daughter relationship, because there are many relationships, Dad, and I know people personally, who have had these very conversations, and who are vehemently opposed to each other's perspective, that they fissure they fracture their families, they walk away from each other and literally say, "I no longer want to be a part of this family" or even worse parents who have said, "You are no longer part of this family, because you do not believe what I believe". 

Jenée Arthur  19:25
[VOICEOVER] In this next portion. I've changed the name of my dad's friend to Jumanji, out of respect and to protect his anonymity.

Jenée Arthur  19:35
Can we talk a little bit about that fight we had when Jumanji called you and said he didn't believe that mom should be watching the Hallmark Channel anymore because two women had kissed on there. They had shown a same sex relationship and it was a horrible, horrible fight we had because my feeling of it was you didn't stop Jumanji and say, Hey, I have a gay daughter you can't because remember how to him and he was talking about gay people calling them horrible things. And my feeling was you didn't stick up for me but that's not really what happened. What happened use explained to me later was you couldn't have talked Jumanji off that ledge if you tried, and it wasn't his business anyway. But I took it personally as you didn't stick up for your gay daughter.

Gene Arthur  19:52  
That event is not a good place for me mentally or emotionally. 

Okay Jumanji is a good friend of mine. I've known him for many years. Jumanji has his ideas and comments. Like everybody else has his ideas and comments. Jumanji is of the mindset that queers are homosexuals are already damned. I don't look at it that way. I look at it as we are all on a journey, and we have the intellect to try to find the truth. And in the search of the truth, there's always that point of redemption, forgiveness. God is greater than his commandments. God is greater than any authority, so much so that we rely on his mercy to correct or fix or change or improve. Jumanji thinks that people like that are damn okay. That's where he is. Jumanji could be wrong. Jumanji could be right. But that's Jumanji idea. And when he says things like that he's so solid in that, and unchangeable.

Jenée Arthur  21:18  
It's not about sharing what I would think you consider dirty laundry with others it's about in that moment as your daughter it felt like he and your reputation with him and not making waves with him was way more important than saying, hey, cut it out. This isn't your your first of all, he was disgusting about how it was talking about homosexuals. So my point was, and I know we've talked about this and we've come to a conclusion that that's not wasn't your intent. What I thought you were saying as mom greatly put it, there is no changing Jumanji isn't mine. He's not going to change his ideals. Because one of his best friends has a homosexual arc. I disagree with that. I think if Jumanji knew Jenée he doesn't know me from Adam, other than talking to me on the phone on occasion. But I think if more people knew people that they were had the Hemet hate for it could be expanding life rather than making him more on the defensive of gay people. But that's just my Actually, it's my hope it would be my hope, because I've seen it happen. So we don't have to stay on Jumanji, other than I want to get to the point where we recognized and came back to each other because you remember I walked out of the house and I said a really horrible statement to you. And was because you said in an in a tone of defense because of why you didn't say anything demand Gee, I can't help it that you chose to be this way. And I was like, You really think I chose this. And that's when it shifted us. Because then you you realize something I don't think you ever realize

Gene Arthur  22:54  
That's really important to you— how I feel. Well, you know how I feel! I think you want other people to feel the same way I feel. But you want me to express it that way to be proud that my daughter is who she is. And… Is that why you are so strong on this point ?

Jenée Arthur  23:17  
I'm strong on it because it's the point of the whole episode. I'm strong on it, because I think that that was the healing moment. How you how you recognize that that's this isn't a choice, Dad, this isn't something anyone would choose. It's how I was made. The God you love so much made me this way.

Gene Arthur  23:35  
Okay, you have same sex attraction.

Jenée Arthur  23:40  
I'm a homosexual.

Gene Arthur  23:42  
Alright, as a father, how do I deal with that? First of all, I still love you, even though you are different in that respect. But that's the only way you're different, is because of your same sex attraction.

Jenée Arthur  23:58  
My whole intent for this episode was to help people recognize that despite different perspectives, you can still have a relationship with a loved one. You don't have to fracture it, because I know so many people that and it's not just about homosexuality. It's about differing in anything politics, I can't tell you how many people I know even just in my facebook group from high school, who have walked away from blocked will never talk to you again, or at least for this moment, are planning on never talking to again, people that differ in politics. I mean, it's just it's amazing to me how differences seemingly create division. And what I'm trying to do is say it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't. You and I are very, very different. We're very the same. I'm a very much like my father in many, many ways. I have a lot of the same beliefs as you. I have a lot of different beliefs than you and very supposedly different beliefs, but I still have an incredibly close loving relationship. So my intent is to say that just that different perspective does not need to equal division.

Gene Arthur  25:03  
I'd like to think of it as we are in harmony with each other. We're comfortable with each other, even with our differences.

Jenée Arthur  25:13 
[VOICEOVER] My dad and I ended this conversation with I love you. We always do. And we mean it. This conversation can be a tough one for a lot of children and parents. I sometimes wonder though, if those uncomfortable conversations aren't hard because of how much we care about one another. When I think about my dad and how he sees my sexuality, instead of being hurt by that, I choose to focus on the fact that there is no one who has taught me more about trusting myself, believing in myself, and following what is true for me than my dad. 

There's so much more I want to share with you. But we've got a lifetime. So if there's anyone out there by whom you feel ostracized or misunderstood, or someone that you've made a decision to no longer speak to because they disagree with you. Think about reaching out. What if that one conversation could transform everything? Let us know if we can help. I'm sure dad's got plenty of room on that ever-growing hour and a half prayer list. 

Thanks for being here. We really appreciate it and it means the world to us.

See you next time.

Division is Optional